Gods am I fucking past burned out.
Subping/Angervent
If your version of The Discourse demands that people consume anything in detail to dismiss it, without limit or sense of timing, I'm really not sure what to say to you.
A shitty series about the confederacy surviving to the modern day is going to be a rallying point for white supremacists, you don't need to read/watch that to know it.
People who praise Mine Kampf are fucking Nazis, you don't need to read it to know it.
@IrisKalmia It is possible to appreciate things that are problematic; speaking positively about problematic things does not immediately mean you are a problematic individual.
Making that leap of assumption and leveling accusations does far more harm than speaking positively about problematic media in my honest opinion.
@mawr this is almost entirely about people deflecting such criticisms with "You haven't read it, how can you know?"
If someone wants to enjoy HBO's next shitty drama or Guns of the South while keeping awareness of the problems they pose, more power to them. If they want to shut down discussion over it's possible social impact they can fuck a cactus
@IrisKalmia Shitting all over the things people like puts them on the defensive. Turning their defensive responses back against them as evidence of poor character puts them in a position they cannot walk away from without damaging their relationship with you, unless they hang their head in shame and admit you are 100% correct and they were 100% wrong.
That's you demanding submission from those you're talking to. That's not a conversation, that's an ultimatum in disguise.
@mawr is "yeah, this has problems but I still like it." really that unobtainable of a position for most?
I feel like we're at some level talking past each other, because I can't see how I'm demanding anyone hang their head in shame and admit they're wrong to enjoy something, just that it be acknowledged that the something is being enjoyed even with it's problems rather than dismissing their mention.
@IrisKalmia It's easy from your perspective because you're used to recognizing problematic elements in things you enjoy and accepting that as part of your reality. That is a rare trait in our society, and one that is only adopted by those who recognize its importance.
Trying to get people to recognize those elements and accept them as problematic takes finesse and care in conversation because it's an uncomfortable topic. Applying more force only stiffens their resolve to defend.
@mawr I can see that, I admit it's mostly been something I've been building from the 'other direction'; I'd found the list of things I could enjoy shrinking to the point I was incapable of doing *anything* and becoming even more anxious. Requiring I find logic that allowed me to enjoy something I found problematic.
I'm still unsure what this has to do with being annoyed at people demanding I consume something I have no interest in to speak about opinions gained through other engagement.
@IrisKalmia I think what they're saying in that statement is essentially "this problematic element is not indicative of the overall message of this media."
To make that statement verbatim in response to your pointing out a problematic element would not end the argument, however. The suggestion instead is made that you consume the media to gain a more complete understanding of that which you're passing judgement on as a whole.
Nazis
@mawr the person I was initially ranting over feels someone should have to read Mien Kampf to dismiss it and those that praise it.
It's an absolutist stance of "One must directly engage with and throughly consume any work before being able to criticize it or it's fans" and I find that difficult to come up with a coherent response to, which I said at the start.
Nazis
@IrisKalmia Personally, I've never read Mien Kampf and I don't know who might praise it or for what reasons so I won't pass judgement for that in isolation. There are many things one can appreciate about even entirely problematic things. A good example of this would be the impeccable design of the Nazi uniforms-- something that's generally universally agreed upon.
That doesn't make those who appreciate the design Nazis(, though it totally does if they wear them).
Nazis
@mawr just to make sure I'm tracking you, you feel it's wrong of me to be annoyed at someone demanding I read that book in order to be able to point out it's problematic elements and the social tendencies of those that praise it?
Nazis
@IrisKalmia You are allowed to feel the way you feel, and nothing anyone says will change that. Your feelings are yours and are not subject to mine or anyone's opinions.
If someone is seriously demanding that you read Mein Kampf, you might ask yourself what the consequences are for choosing not to. If it's just that they won't consider your argument until you do, is it really so important that they agree with you here? There can be other battles, you needn't die on that hill.
@IrisKalmia I have a story that doesn't correlate to Mein Kampf but it does provide some context here for why I take the position I take.
When I was in high school, I chose to read The Satanic Bible. I did this intentionally as a way to make the devout Christians who ran my school as uncomfortable as I could; to give them a taste of their own medicine. I knew I'd be reading a bunch of BS and that it'd be an unpleasant read because of what I'd learned about Satanism from Christians.
@IrisKalmia I got three pages in, and I was hooked. The Satanic Bible is a text about self-acceptance and the true meaning of loving one's self. It's not presented in that context, of course-- but that's what I took away from it. The message it spoke to me was clear and deeply needed in my life at that time. It was:
"You are a human being. You are flawed. You have thoughts you don't like to admit to having, and that's OK. You are beautiful and worthy of love just as you are."
@mawr I've actually read it, even if I hardly recall it.
@IrisKalmia Everything I've ever read about The Satanic Bible before and since has only focused on the negative aspects of that book, but that fucking text changed my life.
It didn't make me a satanist, but it did change my view of the movement and the people involved because I could understand a bit more of their narrative-- the way they understand themselves and the world around them.
Now, I'm not saying Nazis are people we should build compassion with by any means.
@IrisKalmia What I _am_ saying is that people who try to understand the narratives of others are doing important work to bridge the gaps between divergent narratives, and that work should not be dismissed as a whole simply because it involves engaging with things our narratives inform us to define as "problematic."
Consensus is built from conversation, and conversation requires both give and take.
@mawr I don't think I've actually disagreed with that stance throughout this entire discussion. Just voiced that I'm annoyed with someone making a demand of me and the examples they themself had used to clarify they meant *every* work.
Nazis
@mawr it's not, and I'm pretty okay with having them ignore my stance as I have no intention of taking their's under that condition.
I'm having a pretty shit day all around and felt like venting that because I kinda lack anywhere to go and have a solid cry and blowing it into the void seemed like a decent solution in that condition.
Nazis
@IrisKalmia Everything you think you know is a narrative. Same as me, same as anyone else. You can't know their narrative any more than I can know yours. We establish a connection and understanding through conversation- learning where our narratives differ.
Assumption is the basis upon which conversation breaks down and arguments start. By starting out with the assumption that your opposition are the enemy, they become your enemy almost every time. It's a foregone conclusion.