"We assume of others what we know of ourselves" http://www.viruscomix.com/page553.html
LB: this is *exactly* why the Golden Rule does not work.
It is a great starting point to teach kids about cooperative society, but people need to move past it into having a theory of mind that says "other people often want something VERY different from what I would."
Updated rule: "Make an effort to find out what others actually want and do THAT unto them, hoping they will afford you the same courtesy."
@mysidia That sounds like empathy right there.
Though even that rule needs a caveat that some wishes are unhealthy and based more in a temporary negative mind-state than something good for one's overall development & future.
But THAT caveat can be exploited to control others.
The worst thing about people willing to hurt others is that they're also willing to twist ethically constructed statements like this.
@Ulfra_Wolfe @mysidia Definitely yes, but against people who have malicious intent there's not much you can do with mere words to correct them. I was in such a situation here until recently, but still to me I would rather trust, be kind and risk getting hurt than end up as horrid as that one who might try to take advantage of it.
@ulvra @Ulfra_Wolfe Correcting someone who doesn't want to try is entirely useless, and words are usually wrong in most cases, but if people are going to insist on having a rule to teach young people, I sure wish it weren't "assume you should do what you'd have wanted, and expect them to like it."
I would probably take any rule before that one
I would take "throw people off cliffs every day" over that one
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I mean, it's useless saying "don't make up any pithy rules that cut out the fact that each situation is unique and complex," because people are going to do it. Something has to displace the golden rule, or people won't stop thinking that they can go by it and have everything okay.
And boy would I like it to be displaced. They're going to insist on some simplistic little guideline, and I would like to send this particular guideline to the furthest reaches of space never to be seen again.
Like I'd actually rather have everyone be completely selfish and uninterested in others' feelings, than have people constantly overriding what I want and then expecting to be owed gratitude and/or telling me that their attempt to be good overrides my differing needs, because otherwise waaah waaah they might feel guilt for having made a mistake.
But people *will* insist on trying to Be Good because they think that that is actually a thing; they think people can be better or worse than others, and they're maddeningly resistant to thinking otherwise; and I have had it up to here-- *points at ceiling*-- with failed attempts to get people to consider otherwise, so the only practical course is to change the rule to something at least slightly better.
"Be kind" is a better rule, but it's been around for a long time and doesn't seem to catch on, because people won't operate on vagueness.
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@mysidia @ulvra You and I honestly think a lot alike on this and that's a damn good rant you made.
I'm just a bit... fatigued, cynical, but I absolutely agree. And besides the fact that some assholes can try to distort things, they tend to let slip their intentions.
But I think I went well off course what you were intending, and I apologize if I seemed like I was trying to downplay or diminish your idea. That was not my intent, I think you got a good idea going
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I'm pretty fatigued on the topic too. But special interest. Once in a while I just lose patience with people out there... It's not you I'm salty at, it's general ignorance... The way people choose justification over bettering things, I guess.
@Ulfra_Wolfe As a person whose wishes are rare and unexpected like 99% of the time, I'm completely willing to take that risk in order to get people to actually check with me and not just assume.
Virtue Ethics seem best as it emphasizes that there's no set moral rules that apply 100% of the time and that people and situations are always going to be different
@mysidia It also strikes me something:
There's a lot of people whom empathy seems to come naturally to. They construct moral statements like this so people can get along, be happier, work together, be cooperative, and have empathy for those in pain.
But those who don't care about empathy & pain, and only see a short-sighted "us" vs. a more universal love, who develop a very narcissistic view, don't see the value of empathy.
The "rules" become something to exploit.