@Felthry Even golf, where every hole and course is unique, has far more similarity between holes than (to name some games) FunHouse and Stranger Things do. But then we'd have to say 50s tables, which *are* golf-course-similar, are a sport and modern ones aren't and I don't think that's a defensible split.

So I would rule pinball in as a sport, but mostly as I can't give a reason to rule pinball out that doesn't also rule out things that certainly are sports. Call it a discontented yes. 2/2

@Felthry If it muddles scoring any, often in competitive pinball you'll earn a handful of points, based on your finish in a group of four players, so groups playing different tables can be compared.

Most common are 3/2/1/0, 4/2/1/0, 7/5/3/1, or 9/7/5/4 for 1st/2nd/3rd/4th place finishes. (The last two schemes make it easier to accommodate having some three-player groups, as 7/4/1 or 9/6/4 points.)

@Austin_Dern oh so there's points in the pinball game and then metapoints in the pinball tournament?

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@Felthry Basically, yeah. Most competitive pinball is played to see who can beat who, and that's in-game points which can range from the thousands (in a 60s game) to billions (in a modern game). So we need some way to compare my 8,200 points on the 60s game Paul Bunyan, that beat everyone in my group, to your 496,000,000 on Rocket Raccoon which finished third. Giving tournament points that compare finishes in groups makes that less arbitrary.

@Felthry Still has flaws, though; if you got 8,190 on Paul Bunyan, taking second, you get the same tournament points as if you got 1200 points and I stomped you flat. Doesn't seem to quite reflect that one match was essentially a tie. But no system is perfectly fair.

@Austin_Dern maybe it should be based on how you do in relation to the average score on that game
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@Felthry That would probably be more fair, but it would also require keeping of way more statistics than anyone does.

Which competitive pinball may need, really. The standards for judging events, and for league rules, are *very* ad hoc. Like, judges are often competing in events too. And game designers can compete in tournaments too, even after literally writing the rules of the game. That's still not something that happens in an organized sport.

@Austin_Dern i feel like judges competing is okay IF the rules of the competition make everything 100% objective and the judges are just there for scorekeeping (and frequently commentating), like how speedrunning events tend to go

game designers competing is a big no in speedrunning too though
i don't think there's a rule against it?? but people generally don't
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@Felthry Unfortunately there's no making judging 100% 'objective'; any set of rules has ambiguous conditions and judgement calls. Especially since almost no games are recorded, or even closely watched. Judgements have to be based on what people say they witnessed.

That has to change if real money's to get into competitive pinball. There's a move to get more money into pinball, and making judging professional is going to be a major crisis for that.