i'm sure there's an interesting discussion to be had about nationalism and about national allegiance as a perceived-necessary component of one's identity, and how that compares and contrasts with other forms of pride in identity

but im too tired to have it right now

@typhlosion This also gets interesting when you start thinking about nationalism of the oppressed and how THAT factors into everything else

@typhlosion But I am also too tired to think much more about it =P

@typhlosion nationalism isn't pride. it's conceit.

@trwnh @typhlosion I INTENSELY beg to differ.

@OchotonidKnight @typhlosion on what basis?

@trwnh @typhlosion Well, first of all "conceit" and "pride" are not two different things, but mainly, nationalism is ABSOLUTELY a facet of vainglory. If anything here is being mistakenly called "pride," it would be queer peoples refusing to be ashamed for existing.

@OchotonidKnight ah then i should clarify definitions:

- pride:
1. pleasure from one's own achievements or those closely associated
2. a sense of one's own value or dignity

- conceit:
1. false pride, or a sense of exaggerated achievement

- vainglory:
1. inordinate pride in one's own achievements; excessive vanity

nationalism (or more accurately, jingoism or chauvinism) is not pride, to me, because it has nothing to do with the individual's worth. better words are conceit or vainglory.

@trwnh We will fundamentally differ here, as I see no functional difference between even your provided definitions of pride and conceit. This fundamental disagreement will unfortunately hamper any would-be productive conversation on the subject between us.

@typhlosion oh no