it's hard to be a fan of classic sci-fi because excepting people like Ursula K. Le Guin if you dig deep enough basically all of the greats were some degree of gigantic asshole in any number of varying configurations to the degree that it is almost impossible to even discuss the genre without gigantic honking caveats, which is why I don't think 'only talk about the good ones' is a cogent position of scholarship
obviously give MORE attention to the good ones, but they're very thin on the ground
and I think if we're going to HAVE an honest conversation about sci-fi's place in broader cultural literacy then we sort of HAVE to engage with the fact that a humongous amount of the most inventive and skilled creators were gigantic fucking toolboxes and their work needs to be not ignored, but examined from a perspective of shining a light on what it reveals about their biases and failings
these thoughts brought to you by 'I really love and am excited about Dune but it is also basically impossible to detach Frank Herbert's rampant homophobia, white saviorism, and virulent hate-on for socialism from it, which requires I have a very complex relationship to it as a work'
@hystericempress The white saviorism, at least, I might recommend a little skepticism about. I'd have to dig up the article, but I did read something lately that offered excellent evidence that Herbert meant Dune's White Savior Complex to be entirely satirical and doomed.
The rest is probably a pretty solid accusation. And I'm admittedly NOT working from an informed opinion here, just an article I've read. I've never even seen the damn film adaptations...
@zebratron2084 I think they've got some good points, but highlighting 'oh, well, man tries to make of himself a messiah and fails because he cannot conquer nature' falls a BIT flat because by the end of the series Leto II has terraformed Arrakis into a literal paradise planet and the universe is at genuine peace because of his godlike foresight and conquest of nature. It eventually just totally buys-in to the hype and hoists a messiah up the flagpole.
@zebratron2084 Again, Dune, alone, the singular novel Dune, is a critique of that kind of thinking, because it basically ends with 'messianic' Paul Atreides leading a nativist crusade to reestablish his own colonialist powerbase over the planet, having gone native only so far as it gets him what HE wants. But once you get past that point of the narrative and Leto II enters the picture it RAPIDLY abandons that critique in favor of grand space opera intrigue that Leto II never loses at.
@zebratron2084 There IS still always an essential skepticism and melancholy about Leto II's inevitable triumph, but the issue is that his triumph is GENUINELY inevitable. The best anyone can ever manage is making him -personally- upset or sad in a way that fuels his Noble Quest to civilize the galaxy as an immortal godhead. And that's... hard to read as unironic when it's the primary dramatic focus of the narrative and he's the main character.
@zebratron2084 Having read the entire Dune series: it definitely STARTS satirical, but by the time you get to Children of Dune he is starting to be less skeptical and by God-Emperor of Dune he's bought into it -entirely-.
@zebratron2084 Like if you're starting from just, Dune, and sticking to what is said in exclusively the novel Dune, then yes, it is 110% a satirical criticism of ubermenschian white messiah complexes. If it ENDED at that stage, that would be all well and good. But eventually Herbert pushes it so far around the other end it loops back to UNIRONICALLY praising God-Emperor Leto for keeping Fremen around as literal museum pieces.
@hystericempress Oh, here it is! I'm curious how it squares up with the experience of someone who's actually familiar with Dune...
https://medium.com/@hdernity/dunes-not-a-white-savior-narrative-but-it-s-complicated-53fbbec1b1dc