"lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
So up front, I'm not against they/them lesbians. I have some light hesitance about he/him lesbians.
Anyone mind explaining the thinking behind the expansion of 'lesbian' to cover more than she/her-she/her relationships?
Good Girl Energy
"lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos caveats: I'm not a lesbian (though that is partly because I have partners who would feel misgendered by me identifying as such so it's one of those "I refuse to think about it too hard" things as much as anything) but I have some stuff I've learned and listened to and would like to try to answer at least some of this
"lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos so it's a complex issue with a lot of facets
1) pronouns aren't the same as gender. Someone can use any pronouns and still be a girl if they're a girl. Historically, it wasn't uncommon for butch lesbians to use he/him pronouns, go by "Daddy" and the like. One could argue that all of them were trans men that didn't have language for it but that would be presumptive and start making the discussion pretty circular
re: "lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@AzureHusky ohshit, I completely didn't think about that sort of angle. No that makes a lot of sense!
Guess I just have some hesitance from history of cishet dudes saying shit like "I'm a lesbian in a dude's body" in a completely non-trans intention :/
re: "lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos Yeah absolutely there are some cis men who are gross and talk about things in bad faith and that is one way it happens. I also wonder how many of those guys might actually be trying to signal gender feelings that they don't know how to discuss too, I dunno. But i don't think doing gatekeeping would stop the shitty ones either way
"lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos i know people who are women who use non-she/her pronouns so we can't jump from pronouns to gender to sexual orientation.
2) it isn't an "expansion" of the word to use it to mean people who don't exclusively love women. It's hard to find good sources but "lesbian" has been used in a lot of contexts historically. Much like "gay" in the 20th century, it was often used as a label that subsumed things like bisexuality
"lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos frequently any woman who loved women was called a lesbian regardless of whether they had other attractions as well. "Lesbian bars" were for any women interested in women. Like most classifications of queer people it was used in a lot of senses to define people depending on context, whether based on sexual behaviour, orientation, and what kind of orientation.
"lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos some people now use it to mean "not-men attracted mostly or exclusively to not-men" since our better understanding of gender now can make definitions more difficult. As a nonbinary woman, can I be a lesbian? Can someone attracted to me be a lesbian? As definitions become nuanced and gender becomes more understood in complexity, gender-specific definitions are going to evolve some to adapt.
"lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos and 3) my last major point is that as with MANY cases of queer language gatekeeping, it may keep out a bad faith actor or two but seems to cause much more collateral damage than prevented harm. Lesbian gatekeeping is frequently used to attack trans women, AFAB nonbinary people who still feel cultural connections to lesbianism even if they aren't women, etc. I think it's worth having flexibility to people's contexts.
re: "lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@AzureHusky yeah point 2 was one I did know and completely agree with. Was on the tail end of a bicker with a twitter preacher so wasn't fully putting throughts together right <3
re: "lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos okay! Didn't know how much context and stuff you had so erred for over explaining
re: "lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@AzureHusky t'was a good call. Having it all talked out really makes it much clearer thank you <3
Point 1 was really my hang up and was definitely a bad thought for me to hold. Thank you!
re: "lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos I'm glad i could help! I've tried to stay out of stuff and listen mostly since as not-a-lesbian (tho intensely sapphic) I don't want to be discoursing about other people's communities but I think I've learned enough (& have strong enough feelings on queer on queer gatekeeping) to say some stuff on it when needed
re: "lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos I personally feel like you can term a relationship as "lesbian" when it's between folks with feminine components to their gender identities.
I also feel like what you call your gender shouldn't really disqualify you from calling a relationship a lesbian one.
re: "lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@mawr yeah Azure has given me a rather long chunk of text that helped me readdress my hang ups over it.
It feels good to unseat bad ideas <_<
re: "lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos
Well. This depends on how one constructs the theory of woman. If we accept Butler's theory of gender performativity, then we'd need to explain the relationship between non binary identities and lesbianism, especially within gender fluidity. Is this an oscillation between lesbianism and straightness? Does this functionally exclude gender fluidity from the political class of lesbians? If not, does their contingent membership of the political body of lesbianism depend on their current, possibly ineffable gender expression?
Arguing for any form of essentialism is going to be hostile to queer identities almost by definition. Lesbian feminism as a political project avoids constructing worlds with the assumption of gender fatalism as argued in Living a Feminist Life (2017) by Sara Ahmed. Therefore with these two theorists as authoritative we can conclude the necessity of inclusion of He/Him lesbians to the project of feminism.
YMMV.
"lesbian" and current queer culture (asking about)
@Draekos I can't speak to anyone else, but for me "lesbian" is just one of a bunch of labels that accrued along the way as part of trying to figure out how to describe the relationship I had with @ElectricKeet . It's no more accurate than "gay" is, but in some circumstances it's the easiest term of convenience that doesn't require an essay followed by a question-and-answer session with time for rebuttal.