@zetasyanthis Free Christiana, Denmark, is still going strong. Shinmin, Manchuria, was going fine up until the Japanese invaded from one side and the Chinese from the other after a series of local leaders were assassinated. Can't blame its failure on the political system itself.

@literorrery Okay, the first one there is a thousand people. The second lasted three years from what my quick googling said. If you want to be serious, show me something that lasted for 50 years plus with millions of people that actually worked (and obviously wasn't horrific).

@literorrery For the record, I'm lean democratic socialist, but I'm also enough of a realist that I don't think capitalism will ever truly go away, even if it's not the mainstay. Stupid self interest might be able to be driven into the black market, but you're never going to kill it completely.

@literorrery (I say that so that you know I'm not just idealistically opposed. Yes, we need to do better.)

@zetasyanthis It's not that. It's that I think A) you have an unreasonable expectation that there be prior art, B) you're pointing at things that aren't communism and calling them communism. So before I dig any deeper into this, I want to know what you think communism is.

@literorrery Okay, I want you to know I'm taking you seriously, but I am seriously considering walking away from this conversation since I don't want to drown in minutiae. That said, give me a sec to re-state what I mean here.

@literorrery 1) I am not comparing all communists to Stalin. 2) I /am/ however, very concerned that the folks who promote that system of government (which implies use of force to implement it, because not everyone agrees) haven't learned the lessons of history. (1/N...)

@zetasyanthis 2) All forms of government imply the use of force to implement them. Not a valid argument. That's what a police force is, and that's its ultimate purpose, since there is no means of becoming stateless-by-choice in modern society.

@literorrery Agreed. (I actually typed up and deleted that from my statement, because I decided I wanted to underscore the disagreements instead.)

@literorrery I don't think you can establish state control of a *large scale* economy without the prerequisite of political control, hence all existing implementations ending up in human rights disasters.

@zetasyanthis The political control of a political communist state comes from every commune electing a represenative for the district, which so on and so forth up to the size of a state itself. The top level of the communist state evolves emergently from below.

@literorrery Yes? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

@zetasyanthis You mentioned something about there being no means to establish state control of a large-scale economy without the prerequisite of political control. This is where that political control comes from in a political communist system. Also, I'm not that worried about "large-scale" economies, but we can quibble over size in a future discussion.

@literorrery Okay... let's just leave this off for now, then. I think we're talking past each other, unfortunately. :/ (And I think I'm not adequately communicating the emotional side of what I want to be communicating, so I need to think on that.)

@zetasyanthis As you wish. My door is open.

@literorrery Appreciated. I'm going to do some writing this weekend and see if I can work on my communication issue. ^^;

@literorrery That's not really a question I can answer here. People have written entire damned books on it. XD Start here at least: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

@zetasyanthis Okay, give me some credit for being slightly more in-the-know than a wikignome. Communism has a ton of _connotative_ baggage attached to it. I want to know what elements of that connotation you're pointing at and labeling as problematic.

@zetasyanthis Okay, hold up a sec: what do you think I'm saying when I say "communist"?